Additional details about meeting between Imrali delegation; Leader Abdullah Ocalan

The member of parliament from the Party of Equality and Democracy (DEM Partî) in Istanbul, a member of the Imrali delegation and former lawyer of the leader, Cengiz Çiçek, answered questions from the newspaper Yenî Yaşam regarding his meeting with leader Abdullah Ocalan and the events that took place on the sidelines of the meeting. The text of the interview, as published by the newspaper and translated by the Furat News Agency, is as follows:

Your last meeting with leader Abdullah Ocalan was in 2011, and after 14 years, when you went to İmralı again, how did you feel?

When you learn that you will meet Mr. Ocalan, this is not just a personal date for you, but also a date for the peoples, and a date for the democratic struggle of these peoples in their quest for freedom. This journey begins with this mentality and this feeling.

How did you see him?

The last time I saw Mr. Ocalan, I was 32-33 years old, today I am 47 years old, and at that time Mr. Ocalan was 62-63 years old and today he is 76 years old. Therefore, it has been 14 years since I first met him. Naturally, just as physical changes occur in all of us, we will see these changes in him as well. And if you are hearing his voice for the first time, you meet someone who still possesses his strength, youth, and vitality, and you also say that he has never changed.

You said it never changed?

Despite the conditions on the island, you are confronted with a very vital, smooth, and truly strong reality for Ocalan. As lawyers, we conducted extensive research on the island and its history. We have testimonies from Yılmaz Güney to Adnan Menderes. It is not just about the prison conditions, the isolation on the island, and the fact of being in the middle of the sea, which makes it difficult for a person to survive and maintain their mental health. In my opinion, he truly demonstrates a revolutionary stance and conscious resistance. The logic of prison and isolation is the spiritual destruction of a person, but Mr. Ocalan always said: "I am making a revolution inside myself every day here, I am waging an uninterrupted struggle and fighting every moment." Indeed, he has achieved vitality and mental and intellectual resilience.

Was he very disciplined?

Very disciplined, in the past we used to ask about his health, I will never forget, in the lawyers' meeting when we used to ask about his health, he would close his eyes and answer us as follows: "I have become like a factory that has turned into a refinery, I am looking for a place to put it, I have to transfer all my products and data to the community and to my people, this is the filtration factory, I am in the production phase, I am thinking about the democratic future of the community, I am producing, but the channels in which I put it, "weak", he had previously stated that lawyers alone are not enough for this channel, he sees that the health of the community, the political health of the community, and his personal health are linked to each other, in fact he protects his health and promises to protect his vitality as a result of his work for the health of the community, and such a reality is before us.

How is his will and responsibility?

The leader's personality is highlighted in this way, for example, he always said, "For me, physical fitness is the embodiment of mental and spiritual formation." In other words, if you do not nourish yourself mentally and spiritually every day, your health will deteriorate physically and socially. He says, "For me, every day and every moment I am engaged in a spiritual and mental struggle. I am constantly trying to protect myself, my body and my physique against the conditions here." In my opinion, this is very important.

What happened before you went to the hall where the statement was made?

The visit to the island was like a lawyer's visit. Before I entered the meeting hall, we were waiting for him to come, so as a delegation we waited for him for 15-20 minutes, after which we met in a room.

Did he receive you personally?

He received us standing in front of the door. In my opinion, the meeting with Mr. Ahmet Turk was very important. In fact, the meeting of Mr. Ocalan and Ahmet Turk was of a historical nature. It was a meeting of two memories, both from the perspective of Kurdish history, from the perspective of Turkey's democratic history, and from the perspective of the history of peoples. For me, it was of great value, meaning and impact.

Was it a handshake or an embrace?

Yes, it was a handshake and it was a meeting full of laughter and feeling. He himself always attaches importance to such meetings. For the sake of a democratic solution to the Kurdish issue, he wants to establish a democratic society and the democratic transformation of society. It is always a priority. He always gives this meaning to all his meetings and discussions. Without a doubt, this meeting was a meeting that we will never forget in our personal memory and in our lives. The first meeting was full of joy, positivity and strength. In fact, he gave each of us a message about his reality.

How was the dialogue?

For example, on the subject of health, he said to brother Ahmet, "You should take care of your health, but this meeting is a summit that will improve the personal health of each one of us and will be good for everyone's health, the meeting should be viewed and dealt with in this way", the relationship between man and society, which you summarize dialectically, is also important in this sense.

How was the dialogue with you?

He said, "You have also come before", I said, "Yes, I came between 2009 and 2011", he said, "You have also grown old" because he knew that I was from Dersim and Comrade Hamili Yildirim was also from Dersim, he spoke about the meeting of the Dersim people, saying, "It seems as if you and Seyid Rıza are meeting, you are from the same city, but you have feelings".

Before I go into the statement, how were the talks and evaluations?

The text that was read, according to Mr. Ocalan, is a truly pure text, consisting of all his experiences and accumulations over 50-52 years of struggle, and of marathons and collective experiences. We can evaluate this text as a statement for this era, at least I myself see it that way. Therefore, it is necessary to define and give meaning to the lived history, or the stage of practical examination, theoretical attempt, and theoretical level behind every sentence in this text. In this thesis, the interview that we conducted with him for three to four hours explained and clarified every sentence one by one. As for the text of the call, it certainly includes daily work.

What do you mean by daily?

The call regarding the PKK, the ceasefire and disarmament are practical issues, but about this, when the issue becomes a practical stage, there is a philosophy, theory and practical experience of the state, society, era, peoples of the world and all countries, and when we look at it from this perspective, we find that almost three-quarters of our conversations were spent translating these sentences, first of all, our real work should be to understand it, I am not only speaking for the delegation, but for all political actors and actors in the struggle.

Does it place responsibility on everyone?

Undoubtedly, this text and the 3-4 hour conversation with Mr. Ocalan before the statement imposes the task on all of us, calls on everyone to do this work, we are living in a period where everyone must support Mr. Ocalan who has protected his mental and physical health and the health of his three comrades for years and not only that, but through this text he has made an effort theoretically and practically to build a real democratic society and a democratic system in Turkey.

What I understood from the conversations is that this call is not only directed to the PKK, but Mr. Ocalan wants to open the door to a new era at this stage of 52 years of history, but there is something in the last point, that if the doors are not opened in time, and the steps are not taken in time - and this is actually also the warning in the text - that the people will lose the struggle, so the first to open the era and the door and does not deny history, but does not remain stuck in the past, and as always he is in the forefront. Is this where he says: "I am not only preparing the conditions for the Kurds, but for societies, identities and everyone to live together in a free democratic system?"

In his views, Mr. Ocalan evaluated not only the Kurdish history, but also himself the history of all peoples, the history of the Turkish people, and the history of the past thousand years; There is no description or tactical approach based only on the current political, organizational, military and political balances. Unfortunately, I say it with sadness, the current politics and the current struggle are somehow narrowing people down, as they can make you think about narrower daily calculations. Mr. Ocalan’s greatest strength and his greatest contribution is that he is much more than that. In other words, he is trying to save everyone from the narrow environment of the daily struggle and confrontations, not only the Kurdish people, but also the state, the Turkish people, the peoples of Turkey, the Alwaites, the Sunnis, the Christians and everyone. Isn’t this what he wants to say in the call: “The call says, throughout their history of more than 1,000 years, the Turks and the Kurds have always considered it necessary to remain in an alliance to preserve their existence and survive against the forces of domination”?

Not only the Kurdish people tried to survive against the forces of domination, but also the Turkish people, the Turkmen, the toilers and the poor tried to survive against all the wars of domination and all the traps and conspiracies of capitalist modernity over the past two hundred years, which were set for all the peoples living in this geography, and now Mr. Ocalan says this, and if you pay attention and notice, he says: “The voluntary side is dominant, but they always saw it necessary to remain in an alliance,” and this was also the most effective response to the conspiracy against the peoples, some social groups, especially those who are not Sunni or Turkish, were worried about being excluded from this process, but this was an important assessment.

 Isn’t this call really able to calm all these fears? What other details are there in the assessments and in the exchanges? Mr. Ocalan also drew attention to the ancient cultures and beliefs that live in Istanbul, and he also referred to the Istanbul Bar Association. He did not only talk about the proxy appointment policies that the Kurdish people are facing. Yes, he cares a lot about the proxies. He says, “It cannot go on like this.” In fact, he says that the legal conspiracy that emerged through the proxy appointment today is more dangerous than the Serekaniye provocation that is said to have ended the 2013/2015 process. At the same time, when evaluating this with all social groups, he expresses a thesis, about a spring in which everyone gains the right to a democratic society, and every social group and political perspective gains the identity of a democratic society about democratic transformation. In fact, most of our conversation was an increasingly historical discussion about what all the sentences in the text mean historically and currently, and how the future perspective should be dealt with.

He says that building peace and democratic politics is necessary?

Undoubtedly, there is a democratic transformation process, and this is not a new situation for Kurdish politics or for Mr. Ocalan. The body of recognition and the legal standard for this democratic politics is the state, and today it is the government itself. The Kurdish people, or all political opinions and movements with different ideas and orientations outside the government and the official opposition, should not be subjected to oppression and attacks by the regime, to have an equal political dimension, to recognize the right of society and the people to politics and organization, and there should be no obstacles to their constitutional, legal and cultural rights and their ability to organize in their language, culture and beliefs. We cannot evaluate this door that Mr. Ocalan opened and we came out of it with difficulty, just because the PKK laid down its arms and dissolved itself. Note that the PKK statement is correct, it speaks of a new call, a new stage, this is not the end, but the beginning, and now the doors of this political and legal platform must be opened. Is legal prosecution not far away where the PKK decided to declare a ceasefire and hold its congress? How will it move? Accordingly, what should be the first step? We must now prevent provocations, and we say this to the government, the opposition and all political circles. This is what Mr. Erdogan also says, a very valuable sentence. The possible provocations that prevent the development of this process should not be evaluated only from the military and armed forces perspective.

We saw it in Serekaniye, we saw it in Farqin at the end of the Oslo process, and we witnessed those military provocations up close. But from now on, everyone must be vigilant against political provocations. Therefore, this alone cannot be a reason for the Kurds, the Kurdish movement, Kurdish actors and Mr. Ocalan to approach this issue sensitively, because it has always been like this and sensitivity has been shown unilaterally, and the process has always been obstructed. Now the state representatives must deal with it with the same attitude and make efforts in this regard. The PKK said that it would implement Mr. Ocalan’s call. In this regard, Mr. Ocalan had no doubts. Without waiting for answers, he told us: “I told the authorities that the PKK the Kurdistan will implement this order,” but the conference must be held in a safe environment, because each party must hold its own conference when it decides its future.

The doors of Imrali have not yet been opened, there is no clarity and declaration, what should be done politically and legally?

Of course, there will be stages for this, there are statements from all sides that this process will accelerate after Mr. Ocalan's call, but there are also lessons that we can learn from previous solution processes, steps should be taken in a timely manner.

After the PKK declared a ceasefire and announced that it would hold its congress, the PKK must hold its congress in a safe environment and stop military operations, Karayilan himself said "In an environment where these matters are discussed, we entered into a fight 30 meters away from each other," this is a fact, and from this standpoint the PKK declared a ceasefire, in other words, the reasons for the conflict must end.

On the other hand, Mr. Ocalan, who paved the way for this process on his own initiative, is carrying it out under extremely unfavorable and unequal conditions, which we call conditions of isolation. I remember that he had previously explained his position during the Oslo process as follows: “Now everyone is asking me to play my role, but you have thrown me into an empty pool, where there is no water. You are telling me to swim, APO. How can I swim without water?” The legal steps I mentioned are to fill this pool with water. The conditions in which Mr. Ocalan can play his real role, the conditions of physical freedom, the conditions of working freely, must be available to each party and each environment for the process to truly advance.

What should the ground be?

What we mean by the conditions and terms of physical freedom is this: tomorrow there is a need to reduce the ideas of some segments of society, and the different approaches of some political actors in this process can be discussed and brought together, and in all of this, Mr. Ocalan has a special feature, perhaps tomorrow the Alwaites, workers' organizations, women's organizations will want to ask Mr. Ocalan questions, the CHP could say: "We want to discuss this with Mr. Ocalan", and in order for Mr. Ocalan to be able to play his role in pushing the process forward, he needs to have his own secretariat, a team to work with, and there is a team to work with, and to reach all the actors who live outside their place, he needs an environment in which he can quickly reach every actor and every environment, in one way or another, when there is a need, and where he can consult and ensure the decision-making process, and I think this will be one of the basic elements that will determine the future process.

Will the way to implement the law be under the dome of parliament?

Through our delegation, we have a message to all political parties represented in the Turkish parliament, there is a full mandate within the parliament to meet all constitutional and legal requirements, to form a committee in which all parties represented in parliament participate and not just the ruling parties and the Republican People's Party, in other words, we are trying to implement a participatory process and involve everyone, this is also a democratic society, in other words, its philosophy and perspective is that all different identities and different ideas should have a say in the common future of society, and participate in decision-making processes, now it imposes this on itself under bad conditions, your value should also be recognized.

There is a group picture, we are talking about pluralism, is there any diversity in the delegation of 7 people when we look at their identities?

Undoubtedly, but I think there are still few identities, for example, the identity of women and comrades should be directed there more, he also mentioned this necessity in particular.

What did he say about women?

He says, "The model of women's freedom is a project that has not yet been completed for me, it remains incomplete. I have deep research. I am 75 years old and I still ask myself, what would life be like with women without a free life?" We learned from talking to him that he has serious, deep and eye-catching research on the model of women's freedom, but I cannot talk about it to you today, because he can announce it to the comrades himself. It is sad that he cannot write his deep research on women's struggle and freedom struggle in this isolation, because he is at an age when he needs his own honesty to be able to do theoretical work.

He has research through which he can influence the intellectual world, the theoretical world, the socialist world and the world of women's freedom. Therefore, intellectuals, thinkers, creators and writers must support this process.

Have you talked to the other prisoners, Hamili Yildirim, Veysi Aktaş and Ömer Hayri Konar, about the process?

Within the framework of the relationship that Mr. Ocalan has established with them, everything, all decisions, are made through joint discussions. Regarding the topics of discussion and the political process that Mr. Ocalan presents, everyone expresses their ideas and proposals to him clearly. Mr. Ocalan himself drew attention to this vision in the last conversation when he spoke about what should be done. He says: “We discuss things together, we evaluate many things together, so the three comrades must be present when meeting with this delegation.” This is a sign of collective leadership and collective culture.

He also says: “I need other comrades to come so that I can discuss with them. The female comrades must definitely participate in this discussion process, because the line of women’s freedom is very important.” We were witnesses to this as well. What did Mr. Ocalan say about Seyyed Rıza, Sheikh Saeed and Deniz? Mr. Ocalan’s last words were like this: “I could not overcome your lies and tricks, this has become a burden for me, I have not bowed down to you, and let this also become a burden for you.” This is what Mr. Ocalan said in our conversations. He repeated those words of Mr. Rıza and said: “Mr. Rıza said those words, Sheikh Saeed said those words, Deniz and Maher also said those words, and Ibrahim also said those words, but those words were finally said in the last moments. I want to say all those words in life, in the beginning, and as permanent words.” This is courage. In my opinion, everyone should organize themselves around this courage.

T/ Satt.

ANHA