​​​​​​​Andrej Grubačić: Ocalan's physical captivity alarming for all peoples

Historian and professor Andrej Grubačić confirmed that they look forward to put pressure on all international associations care for the release of leader Ocalan, adding that ''he has demonstrated that the alternative his perspective offers is a real one that works and can be a solution for everybody''. 

Andrej Grubačić is one of co-authors of the book ''Building a Free Life Dialogues'' in the ''There can be no more assertive utopia or reality than this'' section,

Andrej Grubačić was interviewed by ANHA's on the effect thought and ideas of leader Abdullah Ocalan had on peoples and his paradigm on the struggle of the Kurdish people for freedom.

The interview was conducted as follows:

Mr. Andrej Grubačić, a very warm welcome to you at ANHA.

First of all, there is aggravated isolation on Leader Abdullah Öcalan, whom you define as a freedom sociologist and world historian in the book "Building a Free Life Dialogues". How do you evaluate the aggravated isolation?

The aggravated isolation is both outrageous and completely unacceptable. The denial of any contact or access to family members and lawyers is not only a huge and constant infringement of Mr Ocalan’s most basic human rights as a prisoner, it is also a blatant attempt to pressurise and humiliate Mr Ocalan as a person. However, it is also extremely important to recognise that the imprisonment and isolation of Mr Ocalan is not only an attempt to subjugate Mr Ocalan personally, but is also an integral part of the Turkish state’s attempt to repress, imprison and break the entire Kurdish political movement as well as all those elements striving to promote democracy, inclusiveness, women’s rights’, and all progressive causes fighting for a better future in Turkey and the wider region today.

What was the purpose of the states taking him prisoner with a conspiracy against the ideas of Leader Abdullah Öcalan?

The aim of the states that were involved in the international conspiracy to take him prisoner was clearly to try and break the backbone of the Kurdish political movement and the kill off its growing strength and influence, not only in Turkey but in the wider Middle East region where the movement has a presence. By demanding real democracy, ethnic inclusiveness and toleration, rights for women and minorities and full respect for ethnic and religious differences, Mr Ocalan and the Kurdish political movement undoubtedly pose a challenge to all undemocratic and authoritarian regimes in the region. Where the political movements aligned with Mr Ocalan’s ideas have gained power and influence at regional level, such as in Syria and Turkey, the putting into action of these fundamental principles offers an alternative that brings hope to millions of downtrodden and repressed peoples, but in so doing it also challenges the very foundations of every despotic regime in the region and by doing so created the conditions for the powers in the region, together with the wider international powers that have interests in the region, to take action to halt and reverse the growth of this powerful and inspiration political outlook.

Why is the physical captivity of Leader Abdullah Öcalan alarming for the peoples?

The physical captivity of Mr Ocalan should be alarming not only for the people that identify Mr Ocalan as the leader of their movement, but also for all peoples and forces that truly believe in freedom, democracy and human rights. It is a disgrace that a country like Turkey, that is still an EU assession country, a member NATO and the Council of Europe, and has many trade and military engagements with Western powers, is allowed to blatantly violate the most basic principles for the humane treatment of prisoners. His total physical isolation of course brings huge concerns about his physical well being and safety, not least because many are rightly afraid of what the Turkish state may ultimately do to Mr Ocalan while he remains isolated and no access is granted. But equally as important as Mr Ocalan’s own personal well being, is the fact that by holding Mr Ocalan in total isolation it is simply impossible for a new and meaningful peace process to begin and take root in Turkey. As so many other conflicts have demonstrated over the years, including our own peace process in Ireland, it is essential that negotiations between the conflicting parties take place directly and pursue peaceful solutions, this is simply not possible if Mr Ocalan is not allowed to engage with either his own movement or the government of Turkey. Between 2013 and 2015 Mr Ocalan demonstrate in very real terms his willingness and ability to help chart a road to peace in Turkey, only Mr Ocalan can truly play this role and it will not be possible while he remains in total isolation.

If we refer to the chapter you wrote in the book, you have compared it with Leader Abdullah Öcalan and many socialists. What is the difference of Leader Abdullah Öcalan? How do you see Leader Abdullah Öcalan's idea with bold lines and what is its importance for the peoples of the world?

In my view what sets Mr Ocalan apart from many other great political leaders who have dedicated themselves to the cause of freedom, democracy, inclusiveness, and human rights, is his unique ability to understand and interpret the history and political realities of the situation in the Middle East today, while at the same time proposing radical solutions that address the fundamental problem of human rights in region and wider world. It is extremely important that people understand the way in which Mr Ocalan’s political thought and understanding have developed and evolved over the years he has spent in prison. The solutions he proposes today are radical but extremely practical and also show a deep-seated understanding of the constraints and frameworks that other political forces are working within. The movement that he inspires has repeatedly shown its dedication to the principles of women’s rights, inclusiveness, non-discrimination, and tolerance, wherever it has had the chance to implement these principles, and this should be saluted, supported, and developed by anyone or any political movement that truly seeks peace and justice for all. The new perspectives that Mr Ocalan has helped to develop are without doubt applicable not only to Turkey and the Middle East but also the wider world, and they are founded on an almost unprecedented ability to understand states, power and discrimination grounded in the unique perspective that Kurdish history and geography give rise to.

In one episode, you used the words "He was proposing a new future imagination" and "There can be no more assertive utopia or reality than this" in addressing Leader Abdullah Öcalan's ideas. Can you explain this a little bit?

I am not sure exactly what publication or interview you are referring to, but I believe I would have been talking about my conviction that Mr Ocalan has made a profound and fundamental contribution to developing political thought and action on the left and progressive end of the political spectrum. Without abandoning the perspectives and approaches of the traditional left movement from which he originated, Mr Ocalan has nonetheless recognised the limitations of some of the traditional analysis and political proposals that the left has put forward to address injustices and grievances in Turkey and the wider region. In its place Mr Ocalan has generated a new perspective which rejects traditional separatism that seeks to build new forms of nation states, and instead focuses on the need to address the fundamental structural underpinnings of discrimination and inequality. By stressing that solutions can be found within the borders of existing states, so long as the key issues of gender, ethnic, religious and class discriminations are addressed by new political structures, a new and real opportunity has been developed to resolve conflicts and create the conditions for justice, democracy and tolerance across the region. By successfully putting these principles into practice wherever the circumstances have allowed, the political movement aligned with Mr Ocalan has demonstrated that the alternative his perspective offers is a real one that works and can be a solution for everybody. That offers an incredible opportunity for millions and millions of people, but is of course a real challenge and threat to the despotic and authoritarian regimes that stand in the way of this vision of the future.

The paradigm of Abdullah Öcalan, whom you define as one of the most original theorists of the democratic modernist revival in this relationship between the past, the future and the present, comes to life in Rojava today. What would you like to say about the attacks against this living system?

The attacks against the system of governance being established in North East Syria today are some of the most vile acts of aggression and ethnic cleansing that have been seen in recent times. If one observers the acts of the Turkish state in recent years, particularly in 2014 in relation to the ISIS attack on Kobane, the later invasion of Afrin with Jihadi militias in 2016, and the invasion of swathes of SDF held areas in Syria in October 2019, and if one then takes account of the ongoing and massive attacks that Turkey has been undertaking and intensifying in Iraq and in South Eastern Turkey, then it is abundantly clear that the Turkish state’s main focus and enemy in the region is not ISIS or Islamic fundamentalism, but rather the Kurdish people. In fact, many people viewed the 2019 military operations and subsequent actions as little more than an ISIS rescue mission on the part of the Turkish state. The attacks are illegal, unjustified, and absolutely disgusting in their intention and brutality. Everyone has seen the vile manner in which allied jihadis rape and kill women and the manner in which they treat the populations of the areas they have taken control of. It is little short of a disgrace that the wider international community has just stood by and allowed this to happen, and that key external forces, such as Russia, have appeared to actively encourage and support these very acts of brutal aggression by the Turkish state.

"If Kurds are at the forefront of the global liberation struggle of the society today, it is because the liberation of the Kurds is intricately intertwined with the liberation of life and the liberation of humanity and nature." How do you see the importance of the struggle of the Kurds with the sentence you used?

In my mind there is absolutely no doubt that the struggle of the Kurds has an importance far beyond the Kurds and the peoples of the regions who are directly involved in the numerous conflicts of that area. Given the key role that Kurds play in the four countries where they predominantly live, it is virtually inconceivable that a real, just, and lasting peace can be found for the region without the issue of Kurdish rights and freedoms being addressed. Yet the struggle of the Kurds has gone well beyond the struggle for their own rights and in so doing has placed their struggle at the forefront of the struggle of all peoples in the region who demand dignity, respect, justice, and democracy for all peoples regardless of ethnicity, religion, or gender. The heroic struggle of the Kurds who fought ISIS, and the highly important and visible role that women played in that campaign – particularly in the context of a region where women’s rights are notoriously less respected than in other parts of the world – has inspired and influenced millions around the globe and well beyond the immediate region of the Middle East. The heightened visibility and centrality of the Kurdish struggle within the wider international struggle for justice has been hugely positive, and will without doubt grow in importance in the coming years.

Finally, do you have a call for both the attacks against the Kurds and the isolation of Leader Abdullah Öcalan to end?

Yes of course we have a call for the attacks against Kurds and the isolation of Mr Ocalan to end, but that call is also for the Turkish state and other states in the region to not only stop attacking Kurds, but also to stop supporting jihadis, trampling on women’s rights, jailing journalists, and attacking trade unionists and human rights activists wherever they are and whatever ethnic background they come from. We are loudly demanding that the wider international community take action and stop turning a blind eye to massacres, ethnic cleansing and the vile attacks that are taking place. We recognise fully that times are difficult, and that the Kurdish political movement has endured some difficult setbacks in recent times, but we are very cautiously hopeful that with Trump now finally gone there may be a change of course from the US administration and an attempt to deal more directly and effectively with the menace that the Turkish state has become for the region and the wider world. We will continue to build the international trade union campaign demanding freedom for Mr Ocalan, and we will redouble our efforts to put pressure on all governments and international institutions around the world to intervene to bring about the release of Mr Ocalan and a restarting of the peace process that was so brutally abandoned a number of years ago.

L.A.

ANHA